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    The RISE Update

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    ac355deny
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    Re: The RISE Update

    Post by ac355deny on Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:16 pm

    I'd done some experiments. 

    google spreadsheets: spreadsheets/d/19Arc7ogKlfMlFSrngRpn4TbHuT0lGJ_GA5jwpmGpYRE

    damage formula = (Effective ATT * BAL + Additional damage multiplier * Additional damage * BAL) * skill multiplier


    Effective ATT: A function of ATT, DEF and ALR. (ATT-DEF) is capped at 10,000 if there is no ALR.
    BAL: (balance/100 ~ 1.00) with step 0.005
    Additional damage multiplier: vary by ATT, DEF and ALR. When ATT is over ATT cap and no ALR, this value ~ 6.25.

    Effective ATT:
    When there's no additional damage, the precise Effective ATT can obtain by raw_damage_calculator because the possible value of damage is limited. 




    3rd order polynomial can fit the data quite nicely with error < 0.01%.
    The formula by Ainama in 2013 can fit too with error < 3%.
    There's a newer formula in 2015, but I don't fully understand...


    Additional damage multiplier:
    The effect of additional damage can be obtain by subtracting effective ATT from raw ATT. Sadly, the raw ATT is no longer obtain by raw_damage_calculator. My guess is that there's a separated balance roll in additional damage part, so that the damage value is spread. So I have to use more data to get a more reliable value.   



    The multiplier is quite linear to (ATT-DEF) when (ATT-DEF)>3000.
    The statement "Effectiveness of additional DMG will vary by your ATTand monster's DEF" seems correct.

    Attack Limit Release:
    This is the part that I'm not sure about. The data point is few and error is larger compare to the above 2 experiments. But a least it shows that ALR affects Additional damage multiplier as well.



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    Re: The RISE Update

    Post by Shippuu on Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:50 pm

    Wow, that's a lot of data, thanks for the initiative.

    Which ATT formula are you using? There was a change to the formula a few years ago to make really weak chars do more damage. I don't have the original as Ainama posted it, but I do have the JavaScript version I converted it into:

    Code:

    var flag = (att - def + 900) / (def + 900);
    if (flag < 1) {
     var x = Math.sqrt(1 - flag);
     var funcX = (0.58012277 * x) + (-0.75477080 * Math.pow(x,2)) + (-0.50902587 * Math.pow(x,3)) + (2.51785703 * Math.pow(x,4)) + (-1.81621180 * Math.pow(x,5)) + (0.41384712 * Math.pow(x,6));
     var effATT = (def + 900) * (Math.pow(funcX,2) + flag); // Capped 10,900
    }
    else {
    (Using the old formula if flag >= 1)
    }

    Some notes on calculation:

    The flag value there does exist in Ainama's version. In it, he uses it to kinda indicate where the formula is losing accuracy (once its below -0.3). I clipped off the JS checks related to that, to keep it to just the formula.

    Regarding Balance - are you suggesting a Balance roll is happening for Additional Damage? This might be something KR got recently (or is going to get soon), but I wasn't aware NA was doing anything like that.
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    Re: The RISE Update

    Post by ac355deny on Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:54 pm

    The formula I used is obtain by running regression on 2 separate cases, so it's not a general form.

    Code:
    Define x = (att-def)/10000 where (att-def) is capped at 10,000

    Def 18500:
    eff.att = 4114.249 + 5929.665*x + 1771.191*x^2 - 207.647*x^3

    Def 13000:
    eff.att = 3171.844 + 5699.765*x + 3089.088*x^2 - 797.401*x^3


    The forumula by Ainama in 2013 (the older version) I refer to is this:
    http://web.archive.org/web/20131207030955/http://vsnobs.com:80/topic/284-anyone-seen-the-changes-to-the-damage-equation/page__st__20#entry1491
    Segment 1 : For DEF <= ATT < 2 * DEF

    Define ξ ≡ 1 - (ATT - DEF) / DEF. (Note this is 1 when ATT = DEF, and decreases down to 0 when ATT = 2 * DEF.)
    New Effective ATT = (ATT - DEF) + 900 + (DEF / 6) ξ sqrt( 2 (ξ - 0.39)^2 + 0.26 ) + 6.25 * (Add Dmg).

    Segment 2 : For ATT >= 2 * DEF

    New Effective ATT = (ATT - DEF) + 900 + 6.25 * (Add Dmg). (same as before)


    Code:
    var flag = (att - def + 900) / (def + 900);
    if (flag < 1) {
     var x = Math.sqrt(1 - flag);
     var funcX = (0.58012277 * x) + (-0.75477080 * Math.pow(x,2)) + (-0.50902587 * Math.pow(x,3)) + (2.51785703 * Math.pow(x,4)) + (-1.81621180 * Math.pow(x,5)) + (0.41384712 * Math.pow(x,6));[size=12][/size]
     var effATT = (def + 900) * (Math.pow(funcX,2) + flag); // Capped 10,900
    }
    else {
    (Using the old formula if flag >= 1)
    }
    Thanks, I can understand the newer formula more now.

    I studied a bit the detailed experiment report by Ainama:
    http://www.inven.co.kr/board/heroes/2028/34224
    The correlation of (ATT-DEF+900)/(DEF+900) and (effATT)/(DEF+900) still exist in new data, but the precise curve is still hard to find.

    Adjust the formula a bit, make that effATT is no longer capped at 10,900, instead make (att-def) capped at 10,000. Then it still fit data pretty well, with error < 0.2% in higher end.
    (edit:effective attack does not capped at 10,900 in S3 bosses, but the cap still exist in some other bosses.)

    Regarding Balance - are you suggesting a Balance roll is happening for Additional Damage? This might be something KR got recently (or is going to get soon), but I wasn't aware NA was doing anything like that.

    It was changed in Dullahan at 95 update.

    • Fixed an issue where Additional Damage was not affected by balance
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    Re: The RISE Update

    Post by ac355deny on Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:59 am

    https://pastebin.com/S9WFQ7tE

    By the help of the above simple program, I'm able to determinate the effect of additional damage, thus get some precise multipliers:

    For 3000(not sure yet) < (ATT-DEF) <= 10000

    slope = 6.25/10000

    For (ATT-DEF)>10000

    slope = 0.0004162 ≈ 1/2400

    Therefore, the formula of additional damage multiplier:

    Let x = min(ATT-DEF,10000+Attack Limit Release)
    1. if x ≤ 3000, multiplier ≈ 1.875
    2. if 3000 < x ≤ 10000, multiplier = 6.25*x/10000
    3. if 10000 < x, multiplier = 6.25 + (x-10000)/2400






    Before balance apply to additional damage(Dullahan update), the damage formula would be
     
    Displayed damage = (Effective ATT * BAL + Additional damage multiplier * Additional damage) * skill multiplier

    Using the multiplier formula above, the estimated damage has error < 0.5%, which fit data better than the assumption that there is a fixed ALR multiplier.

    Data:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NJfhs9q9TNxL5gB5Z0dA6TZOPsFVbo5FrDaTRR5f800/edit#gid=1346078




    Second Transformation Damage formula

    Battle: The Fomorian Leader - Shining Shakarr (def:6244)

    Transcendence RankDisplayed ALREffective AttackAD multiplier
    NA0109006.25
    F300115006.52~6.61
    B1500139007.43~7.65
    A180014500not tested yet
    A2000(200ALR from gears)147007.82~7.86
    It seems like ALR from Transcendence will provide 2x effect. Therefore the displayed ALR is kind of inaccurate, the real ALR should be (2*ALR by Transcendence) + ALR by equipment.
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    Re: The RISE Update

    Post by Shippuu on Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:04 pm

    It has been a hell of a long time, but if you are still around, could you clarify one part for me?

    The section you worked out about how Additional Damage scales with your ATT. Would it be correct for me to assume I can use Effective ATT as the value for this check? Its calculation is a bit more complex than the equation you showed there, looking more like:

    Math.min(10000, (ATT - enemyDEF + compensation value) ) + 900.

    The base 900 is a value used by the game to prevent Effective ATT from becoming negative. This would put the base cap (if the formula ingame wasn't broken...) at 10900, not 10000.
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    Re: The RISE Update

    Post by ac355deny on Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:10 pm

    There are some errors in my old posts, so I decide to make a new post.

    original post (Chinese)

    data1 old experimental data. I'm too lazy to clean it.
    data2 new experimental data.





    Basic Formula:

    Display damage = floor((base part + add part) * skill multiplier)
    base part = Base DMG * Balance roll
    add part  = Additional DMG * Additional DMG multiplier * Balance roll

    Balance roll:

    A random number from Bal/100 to 100% with step 0.5%.
    For example, Bal 90 will have balance roll 90%, 90.5%, 91%, ..., 100%.

    Applied ATT:

    Case 1: (no ATT cap)
    Applied ATT = ATT

    Case 2: (with ATT cap and Attack Limit Release)
    Applied ATT = min(ATT, ATT cap + ALR)

    The following ATT would refer to the applied ATT.

    Base DMG: or Effective ATT (BTW, which phrase is better?)

    Case 1: (ATT - DEF) ≦ DEF
    Let x = (ATT-DEF+900)/(DEF+900)
    f(x) = 0.1856 + 0.5525*x + 0.4214*x^2 - 0.3094*x^3 +0.3643*x^4 - 0.2144*x^5
    Base DMG = (DEF + 900) * f(x)

    Case 2: (ATT - DEF) > DEF
    Base DMG = 900 + (ATT - DEF)

    Normally, (ATT - DEF) will be capped at 10000, and ALR can help it exceed the cap.
    So drive from the formula naturally,
    (a) For the Bosses that have DEF < 10000, Base DMG will be capped at 10900.

    ▲ Defense 6244 (Shaka)
    Black line = case 1 (curve), blue line = case 2 (straight line)
    Dotted line = Base DMG with ALR

    (b) For the Bosses that have DEF > 10000, Base DMG will go higher as DEF go higher.

    Solid line = Base DMG before ATT reach the cap
    Dotted line = Base DMG with effective ALR, from 0 ALR to 2750 ALR.

    I made a little change in the first part, so the values are more accurate in S3 bosses.
    Formulas comparison


    Additional DMG multiplier:

    Case 1: (ATT - DEF) ≦ 3000

    Additional DMG multiplier = 6.25 * 30% = 1.875

    Case 2: 3000 < (ATT - DEF) ≦ 10000
    Additional DMG multiplier = (ATT - DEF) / 1600 = 6.25 * (ATT - DEF) / 10000

    Case 3: 10000 < (ATT - DEF)
    Additional DMG multiplier = 6.25 + (ATT - DEF - 10000) / 2400




    skill multiplier:

    skill multiplier = skill base multiplier * ( 1 + [Mastery Boost] + [Skill Boost] ) * ( 1 + [DMG Awaken Boost] )
    It can be refered in charactor multiplier table.




    Application:

    damage calculator, or output ratio calculator?
    Inspired by DPS's calculator.

    The effectiveness of ATT and Additional DMG in 2nd Redeemer:

    Balor has 23500 DEF, ATT CAP at 33500.

    The values on contours are (raw damage/3125).
    For exampale, with 33500 ATT and 4500 Additional DMG,
    Raw damage =  12191 + 4500 * 6.25 = 40315 = 12.9 * 3125


    Last edited by ac355deny on Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:47 pm; edited 2 times in total
    ac355deny
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    Re: The RISE Update

    Post by ac355deny on Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:44 pm

    boddole wrote:Having read that, my freind mentioned something to me today that gives me pause (as cursory and slap-dash as it is) - He was tracking the damage of a specific attack's non crit damage in Hero Muir noting it did ~9k damage, then that same non crit attack was doing ~3k damage in Normal Havan...ugh why do do they keep insisting on changing everything constantly...

    -I'm also seeing a x3 damage done difference between Normal and Hero Havan with identical setups (684 AD)

    -I must be crazy at this point:
    -Ran Normal White Tyrant's Challenge, which produced very similar numbers to Hero Havan (which is what I would expect).
    -Ran Normal Mode Cromm, produced ~twice as much damage as Normal Havan with the same cap.

    Are they just setting values on a boss by boss basis at this point?

    -Another update: It seems that at least the Malina boards Battle Info Window is bugged (a few other people are saying they see the same thing), where ex-raids will show both Normal and Hero modes with the same ATT Cap. Not that this should be changing how much damage you do...this game...

    Here is the test
    They set Normal mode S2 Bosses with different DEF
    BOSSHealthATTDEFCRITCRIT DMGCRIT RES
    Lakoria96,0001441793167015051
    Kraken(leg)144,0001441765443015046
    Kraken(head)144,00014417111643015055
    Iset108,0001441756203013046
    Havan168,0001441793167015051
    Executioner Pantheum117,6001441793167015051
    Bark No. 1(body)168,0001441793167015051
    Bark No. 1(arms)18,0001441793167015051
    Juggernaut192,0001441793163015051
    Inquisitor Ulchas192,0001441756203013046
    Lavasat144,0001441756207015046
    Hellspike12,0001441758032212044
    Druid192,0001441756203013046
    Cromm Cruaich168,0001441756203015046
    But they also set those raids to have the same ATT cap = 11744.
    Therefore the damage is suppressed.

    In the Hero mode, DEF is set to 13000 and ATT cap is set to 23000, so the damage is back to normal.
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    Re: The RISE Update

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      Current date/time is Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:21 am