The RISE Update

Korea has had no real updates since January of this year, due to the RISE update. The director was absolutely confident that this update would live up to what he expected it to be, and wouldn't compromise.

This week, we got to see firsthand what the RISE update is. How does KR rate it? Well, there is very serious talk that this would end Mabinogi: Heroes if it goes live. The reaction of the Vindictus NA community in Discord seems to be about the same.

To start with, since this update has a LOT of changes, here is the material provided by Nexon KR, the promo video and the (translated) patch notes:



Dragonblade/Tankblade has been translating these patch notes and the promotional video. This is what he has wrote up about the update:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iS6lP3s9WNy8-DjLsLgSEVtDnJjVKGa4u8roWM16EuI/edit

A second translation has been made by cube and Akkiina, and can be found here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f3DIfqw9N7KpTVux2E2GpsIPD0fdvX7ke-mGvAaFr2o/edit

If you can read Korean, here is the full patch notes straight from the source:
http://heroes.nexon.com/news/update/view?postno=790

The changes:

Enhancement

First of all, enhancement has been uncapped to 20. Items that do not have the "Rare" rarity (Orange name) have their enhancement capped at 12. The rates have been changed as well. Here is the new set of rates, alongside the old:

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2021 NOTE: These values are now all correct; Nexon KR has released the rates.

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The Additional Damage value of each enhancement level has been rebalanced as well. Here are the new values:


Yes, that is an Armor column on Additional Damage from enhancement. Yes, this is real life. Yes, this is insane. Armor gives 1/5 as much Additional Damage per piece as weapons, meaning a full set of five matches your weapon's Additional Damage.

This makes the new cap on Additional Damage 25,000, up from 300. Further, the calculation, so far, looks to be exactly the same as before. For a character with 2300 Remove ATT Limit and a +15 Lv.90, once they re-cap everything with +20, they will be roughly 12x stronger than before. Twelve, if I need to use the word instead. If you don't happen to have 2300 Remove ATT Limit, it will be closer to 14-15x stronger.

NOTE: Recent data implies something actually changed with Additional Damage and/or Remove ATT Limit, but nobody has pinned down what, yet. Evidence implies Remove ATT Limit has been buffed, and that Additional Damage itself is unchanged. No definitive theories yet, massive kudos to the people data gathering though.

Raiding

The Season 1 and Season 2 raid battles are now former raid battles. They are no longer classed as raids, no longer give Seals of Bravery, and no longer have run restrictions. Aside from Neamhain and Royal Army Raids, the max party size is now 4. Royal raids now cap at 12. Neamhain is still 8.

All battle difficulties everywhere have been axed and removed. There is only Normal mode now. Not even Hero mode exists anymore. Additionally, the former raid battles in S1 and S2 have had their HP dropped by 90-95%, leaving them with only 100-150k HP each.

Conversely, the HP of Season 3 raid bosses has been increased, and no longer scales with party size. All Season 3 raids except Dullahan have about 7.7m HP now, even if soloing. Dullahan has 13.9m.

Niflheim bosses have been buffed to about 12 million HP, and a 24,000 ATT cap has been placed back on them.

Neamhain has been buffed to 42 million HP, up from 15 million, but Neit's phases are unchanged (and thus VERY short).

Ancient Lakoria has 71.4m HP, and the other Royal Army Raids have 63m HP. They are otherwise unchanged.

Due to these changes, it is only possible to get 11 Seals of Bravery per day now, without purchasing VIP capsules with NX. 7 from Season 3, 3 from Niflheim, and 1 from the daily Royal Army Raid.

Enhancement Part 2

Making this a separate post, and restating parts of the info, due to how serious this one set of changes is.

Additional Damage's application to damage seems entirely unchanged, based on rough and admittedly limited data. Recreation of damage values implies it is still 6.25x, but it is unknown if it is subject to the ATT Formula. You get so much of it that the difference is insignificant, though.

Currently, with min/max gear, you get a max Effective ATT of 12775. This ignores Remove ATT Limit, but I will come back to that shortly.

Post-RISE, if you have a +15 with full +10 armor, this is going to go up to 33712. If you play the RNG game and stop at +15, you will have 48400 with a full +15 armor set and +15 weapon.

If you have a +20 weapon and +10 armor, you will have 93087 Effective ATT, and straight +20 all will have 167150.

These look like a bunch of numbers that might not mean much, but this is your damage multiplier, effectively. This plus the crit roll plus the multiplier of your attack gives the attack's final damage. And look at these numbers! If it helps, let me convert them out to percentages...

[table2 width="400px"]
[title]Enhancement Damage Increases[/title]
[head]
[cell]Effective ATT[/cell]
[cell]New Total Damage[/cell]
[/head]
[row]
[cell]12775[/cell]
[cell]100%[/cell]
[/row]
[row]
[cell]33712[/cell]
[cell]263.9%[/cell]
[/row]
[row]
[cell]48400[/cell]
[cell]378.9%[/cell]
[/row]
[row]
[cell]93087[/cell]
[cell]728.7%[/cell]
[/row]
[row]
[cell]167150[/cell]
[cell]1308.4%[/cell]
[/row]
[/table2]

Capping out at dealing 13x as much damage as before. But what about Remove ATT Limit? I said I would come back to it at the start of this post.

Remove ATT Limit

Well, let's add it in. But first, we need to remember that Damage Reflection has been converted into Remove ATT Limit, with the same step values/maxes/etc. This newly caps Remove ATT Limit at 3260 (2300 + 960).

So let's add it in:

167,150 + 3,260 = 170,410

170,410 / 167,150 = 102% damage over 0 Remove ATT Limit. Oh...

For that matter, let's quickly look at this ATT problem in a different way. What if we have a theoretical boss with 55,000 DEF, and you only have 42,000 ATT? (This is reality now). Let's even take it further, and say Additional Damage is subject to the ATT Formula via an ATT deficit reducing it, like in this case.

42,000 ATT on 55,000 DEF is a 13,000 gap, which calculates out to 4254 Effective ATT with the known approximated formula, which is still accurate in this range according to the data provided by its creator. Why is it not negative? Well, remember when I talked about the issues with the ATT Formula before, about stronger enemies having lower caps? That's relevant again.

So we take the Effective ATT from the 25,000 Additional Damage (156,250) and add it to that 4254, getting 160,504.

160,504 / 167,150 = 96% damage against fully capped. Excellent value, the ATT stat is. If you want to go for maximum injury and use the 170,410 Effective ATT for comparison, it is 94.2% damage.

Balance

After having seen the Remove ATT Limit section, I'm sure you know where this is going. However, this time, I'm not going to throw out lots of detailed math. These comparisons are essentially calculations of Average Power from the Armory, which are quite lengthy. Instead, let's look at how Balance works.

Balance is an RNG roll that is made for every attack that you do. It rolls values approximately between your shown Balance and 100. This isn't perfectly accurate, but it's close enough for this example. The steps for damage calculation are as follows (approximately)

1: The ATT Formula is applied (Your ATT vs boss DEF, with ATT being capped at AttCeiling defined in QuestDifficultyInfo plus RemoveATTLimit).
2: The Balance roll is applied
3: Additional Damage is applied
4: Everything else

Do you see the catch here? Additional Damage skips the Balance roll. So let's look at how impactful Balance is, at these new higher enhancements. We will start with current min/max, and then look at a few examples post-RISE.

1: Current
10900 ATT + 1875 ATT (300 Additional Damage) = 12775, 85.3% of it affected by Balance

2: +15 Weapon, +10 Armor (Standard endgame min/max, post-RISE)
10900 ATT + 22812 ATT (3650 Additional Damage) = 33712, 33.2% of it affected by Balance

3: +20 Weapon, +10 Armor (Capped weapon, same armor as previous endgame, post-RISE)
10900 ATT + 82187 ATT (13150 Additional Damage) = 93087, 11.7% of it affected by Balance

4: +20 Weapon, +20 Armor (New endgame min/max, post-RISE)
10900 ATT + 156150 ATT (25000 Additional Damage) = 167150, 6.5% of it affected by Balance

Balance only affects ATT, and even obliterating it to 50 will still average out to ~75% damage from ATT. While that would tank a quarter or more of your DPS with the current stats, post-RISE it's relevance shrinks to so little that even 4 Attack Speed mitigates the loss of 30+ Balance at higher enhancements...

Note: Full disclosure, the 10,000 ATT cap is actually gone. Due to the same Effective ATT calculation bug mentioned above, the cap will become higher as the DEF of the boss goes up. This leads up to a roughly 5% inaccuracy at Dullahan, where Effective ATT is closer to 11.5k than 10.9k.

Summary

tl;dr ONLY Additional Damage matters post-RISE, if this isn't fixed.

DOL saw fit to nerf additional Damage on sub-90 weapons, but 90+ weapons are unchanged.

The game just died, the ATT Formula cannot withstand such huge Additional Damage values. Detailed info in the post above.

The worst part is DOL insisted this wouldn't make the game easier. 13x more damage is not a game balance difference, apparently.

Update as of today:

1)Dungeons:
 - S1 and S2 dungeons are limited to 5 runs per day (to prevent bots and macro-users from endless farming).
 - S3 dungeons level requirement is a solid Lv 90+.

2)Royal Raids:
 - RR bosses got their HP cut down by 50%.
 - The required amount of players to launch Royal Raids are changed to at least 10 players.

3) S3 Bosses:
 - S3 Raid Bosses got their HP cut down by 25%.
 - S3 General Bosses got their HP cut down by 15%.

4)Changes to Seal Shops - now they require a certain level to enter those shops:
- Seal of Dedication shop - Lv 40
- Seal of Bravery shop - Lv 70
- Seal of Honor shop - Lv 80
- Rare Items shop - Lv 60
- Artifact shop - Lv 60

Thanks for the update on info.

We have a new minor tidbit of confirmation, after today's newspost by Nexon NA.

There was slight controversy over the new enhancement rates for 1-20. Players knew/believed they were real, DOL said they were fake (he called the entire sheet, which included probabilities such as +15 to +20 in a row fake, but not any specific part, notably).

However, today, Nexon NA has confirmed the legitimacy of the rates. Our math on the rates showed that while 13-15 is significantly harder than before, overall one shotting 1-15 was exactly the same odds. Today, Nexon NA has announced the RISE changes, and that the rate to go from 1-15 will be the same despite the changes.

This confirms both that DOL lied (the entire sheet was accurate), and that he also lied about the rates changing. They are still exactly what is listed above. Enjoy your ten billion weapons for 1-20.

The rates you posted, the success rates, are not correct. That table is no longer used to set enhancement rates.

If you recall, both Nexon NA and Nexon KR both declared that 1-10 would be easier, and 13-15 on weapons would be harder. Yet as you see on that set, those are the old rates.

Making a separate post as a status update.

The initial results a friend and I had of Additional Damage before RISE arrived seem to still be accurate, so far.

However, in a surprising twist, it is looking like Remove ATT Limit has been given a multiplied effect. Given that it was supposed to be a 1:1 value to your ATT cap, I really hope this is not the case. Making it confusing like Additional Damage is NOT good for the game.

I will update this thread as more is determined about the calculation changes.

"I really hope this is not the case"
-It is. I don't know if you want my posting links to the Vindi forum (since they don't seem to like other people's links), Someone posted a bunch of data as well as the idea that the ALR modifier is now 3.125. I analysed the data and long story short, it is 3.125 now and AD is worth ~2.1 ALR in terms of value (assuming you have enough ATT to cap your ALR).

boddole wrote:"I really hope this is not the case"
-It is. I don't know if you want my posting links to the Vindi forum (since they don't seem to like other people's links), Someone posted a bunch of data as well as the idea that the ALR modifier is now 3.125. I analysed the data and long story short, it is 3.125 now and AD is worth ~2.1 ALR in terms of value (assuming you have enough ATT to cap your ALR).

Seven data points is not enough to call it done yet.

300 to 2710 with perfectly consistent results isn't enough of a spread yet? How much ALR can you get at this point (I've heard someone mention that one player had ~5k...)?

boddole wrote:300 to 2710 with perfectly consistent results isn't enough of a spread yet? How much ALR can you get at this point (I've heard someone mention that one player had ~5k...)?

Seven data points, on one character, with one attack, on one boss, on one mode. My concern is understandable.

This is proof Remove ATT Limit is not 1:1, or that Additional Damage is not 6.25:1, or both, but the sample is small enough to be a coincidence still. There's also the (likely fictitious) claim Nexon made about Additional Damage now scaling based on your ATT and the enemies DEF.

Once this is called done, it is unlikely anyone will mess with experimenting into it again, just assuming it to be accurate. It needs to be certain the first time.

"claim Nexon made about Additional Damage now scaling based on your ATT and the enemies DEF"
-Interesting, never heard about that.

boddole wrote:"claim Nexon made about Additional Damage now scaling based on your ATT and the enemies DEF"
-Interesting, never heard about that.

From this news post:
http://vindictus.nexon.net/news/23324/rise-revolution-update

The KR RISE patch notes made the same declaration.

Given that some of the other claims were fictitious, this one likely is also, but it must still be considered as a possible variable - just like Remove ATT Limit turned out to be.

Having read that, my freind mentioned something to me today that gives me pause (as cursory and slap-dash as it is) - He was tracking the damage of a specific attack's non crit damage in Hero Muir noting it did ~9k damage, then that same non crit attack was doing ~3k damage in Normal Havan...ugh why do do they keep insisting on changing everything constantly...

-I'm also seeing a x3 damage done difference between Normal and Hero Havan with identical setups (684 AD)

-I must be crazy at this point:
-Ran Normal White Tyrant's Challenge, which produced very similar numbers to Hero Havan (which is what I would expect).
-Ran Normal Mode Cromm, produced ~twice as much damage as Normal Havan with the same cap.

Are they just setting values on a boss by boss basis at this point?

-Another update: It seems that at least the Malina boards Battle Info Window is bugged (a few other people are saying they see the same thing), where ex-raids will show both Normal and Hero modes with the same ATT Cap. Not that this should be changing how much damage you do...this game...